The Lizard Log

The Langkilde Lab in Action

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Veterinary School:  Is it worth it?

As the lab’s resident veterinarian, I’m frequently asked questions about getting a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine degree. Things like, “What were you thinking?” and “Does thinking about your student loans keep you up at night?” I thought I would cover a few of these topics here in the lab blog.

To start with, to anyone who is considering applying to veterinary school:  It is NOT a smart economic decision. The cost of a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (DVM or VMD) degree, on average, barely breaks even over the course of a man’s career, and actually slightly decreases the lifetime earnings of a woman. Given that 90% of veterinary students graduate with student loan debt (how did 10% of students manage to graduate without any debt??? So jealous.), and the average student loan burden is over $160,000, this is not surprising. Compounding the financial strain is the relatively low starting salaries of veterinarians, only around $67,000 a year if they start working full-time immediately, rather than pursuing further training such as a PhD, internship, or residency. And there doesn’t seem to be any advantage to attending a more expensive school; starting salary is in no way correlated to student loan debt or the cost of tuition.

Vet student debt to income

The direness of the financial situation of course varies considerably by field, with food animal and equine veterinarians having the worst debt to income ratio, and vets working in industry having the best. Veterinarians working in academia (like me!) fall somewhere in between, but we at least have a decent chance of paying back our student loans in a reasonably timely manner. Even if I do often feel like this:

Student loan debt

There is a pervasive myth that, in spite of the heavy debt load and relatively poor earning potential, there is a national shortage of veterinarians, so it is at least a good field to go into for job security. This, unfortunately, is not true. While the number of job openings for veterinarians are predicted to increase by 9% from 2014-2024, the number of graduating veterinarians has been rising by 1.8% per year for the last 30 years (we currently graduate ~3000 new DVMs per year), a trend which is expected to continue. And a 2012 report by the National Research Council (NRC) showed that there is no national shortage of veterinarians, except in some rural areas. This is also consistent with the findings of the 2013 AVMA veterinary workforce report, which showed that 12.5% of the veterinary capacity to provide services is going unused (this does not mean that 12.5% of veterinarians are unemployed or underemployed, just that as a whole, 12.5% of the potential services that could be provided by veterinarians around the country are going unused each year). However, this is not necessarily bad – there is also not an extreme surplus of veterinarians, and unemployment in the field is lower than the national average, only 3.4%. And having a moderate surplus of capacity means we can better handle emergencies such as disease outbreaks.

So, given that we’ve established veterinary school is a terrible, terrible, terrible financial decision, why do people still get the degree? And why am I among them? Well, for most people I think it’s more of a calling than a career. Most veterinarians desperately love their job, love caring for animals, and consider the incredible financial burden to be worth it if it means they get to spend every day saving lives. In my case, I never intended to be a full time practicing veterinarian. My plan was always to obtain both a DVM and a PhD, and work as a researcher. And, as I said earlier, the financial outlook for a veterinarian in academia is much better than for most practicing veterinarians; my salary is likely to be higher, and I can at least start paying off my student loans while working on my PhD.  The big payoff to the veterinary degree, for me, is a detailed knowledge and understanding of a wide variety of animals. I focused a lot of my study on interspecies comparisons, and how to extrapolate information from one species to be able to apply it in another. This has proven immensely useful in my academic career; even though I haven’t worked extensively with reptiles or amphibians prior to entering this lab, my knowledge in a wide variety of other species is still applicable. Medical training is also much more thorough, in general, than PhD classes are; there is no way I could have gained this depth of knowledge without having obtained a medical degree of some kind. And veterinarians are uniquely well-suited to answering questions about comparative anatomy and physiology, and to determining how likely a disease or medicine is to work in one species versus another (compare this to human medical doctors, who are taught the same things as veterinarians, but in only one species). This is invaluable in efforts to determine how wide-ranging an effect a research finding might have. For example, research done by Gail shows that stress causes immunological changes in the Eastern fence lizard (Sceloporus undulatus). My veterinary training makes me well-suited to developing hypotheses as to why this might be (questions based on what parts of the immune system are affected, what the time line of the changes are, etc.), and how likely this change is to be something that would occur in other species in the same situation (i.e., would a squirrel/snake/fish/etc. experience the same immune system changes when exposed to the same type of stress?). It also helps me explain some of our findings better, like how stress might cause changes in certain portions of the immune system, but cause no changes, or even opposite changes, in other parts.

While there has been a push to include human medical doctors in research using human subjects, there has not been as concerted an effort to do the same with animal subjects. All animals used in research are of course overseen by veterinarians, but usually their role is limited to the care and compassionate use of the animal subjects. I personally feel that most fields of animal research would benefit greatly from more veterinary input in developing hypotheses to test, and in study design and interpretation. One of my career goals is to illustrate how veterinary knowledge and training can benefit the research community, and encourage more scientists to obtain veterinary training, or encourage more veterinarians to participate in research.


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Return to Research Land!

Hi, I’m Caty Tylan, one of the new Ph.D. students in the Langkilde Lab. Since this is my first post, it will mostly be an introduction. Short version: I’m a huge science nerd who reads, cooks, and plays a LOT of board games in my spare time. I have 1 adorable husband, and 3 adorable pets – a cat, a rabbit, and a very large dog.

Me with our giant puppy.

He luuuuuurrrvves me.

He’s a little needy.

Our tiny Holland Lop.

My nieces and nephews LOVE our bunny.

The cat is not amused.

But she is adorable.

I just graduated with my D.V.M. from Purdue University, but as the title of this post implies, I spent a lot of time in various labs before going to veterinary school, and I am excited to be doing research again! I obtained my B.S. in Biology from Drexel University, where I worked in a couple of different ecology laboratories, and also had the opportunity to work at Merck & Co., Inc. for my cooperative education experiences. After undergraduate I moved to Indiana and worked as a laboratory technician in the Bacteriology department of the Purdue University Animal Disease Diagnostic Laboratory. During this time, I was lucky enough to work with a wide variety of species, which I loved. However, I wanted to know more about how they worked on a basic biological level before doing more research with them, so I decided to attend veterinary school. I was initially co-enrolled in a Ph.D. program, where I rotated through a couple more laboratories, but I eventually left the Ph.D. program due to conflicts with my D.V.M. program.

While completing my D.V.M. I started a project to test out a novel euthanasia method for use in domestic ducks. There is currently no good method for euthanizing large numbers of ducks, which is sometimes needed in cases such as disease outbreaks. The method that we’ve been testing out involves injecting alcohol into the duck’s brain, which has proven to be arguably the least traumatic method for the ducks.. The brain does not have the correct type of receptors to feel pain from the needle’s insertion, so the ducks experience no more pain than if they were having their blood taken, quickly followed by unconsciousness and death.  We are currently working on publishing our results.

I have minimal background in herpetology, having done some field work with turtles during undergraduate, but I’m excited to apply my medical knowledge to enhancing the study of fence lizards and other animal species in the Langkilde lab. I’m starting out focusing on the study of stress and separating out the effects of glucocorticoid hormones from the other mediators of stress in fence lizards.

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The Transition to Veterinary School: Mastering the Art of “Suffering Happily”

by former undergraduate Courtney Norjen

After four fantastic years at Penn State, I packed up all of my stuff in August and moved to Columbus, Ohio to start veterinary school at the Ohio State University (but don’t worry, I will always truly be a Nittany Lion!)

I was asked to write about what starting veterinary school is like, and I have been struggling to come up with an accurate description. So to procrastinate, I flipped through a Tumblr blog called “Shoulders Deep in Vet School” (it’s hilarious if you’ve never seen it). As I was scrolling, I came across a perfect GIF for describing what veterinary school is really like. It is a quote from Harry Potter, when Ron is reading Harry’s tea leaves and claims “you’re gonna suffer…but you’re gonna be happy about it.” Vet school is incredibly challenging and the workload is massive, but it’s also unbelievably rewarding and I could not be happier to be here.

There were two major educational culture shocks when I started vet school. First, there is no “syllabus week”. There isn’t even a “syllabus day.”   My classmates and I walked into class the first day excited to start school and figure out what our classes would be like. And suddenly it was like trying to drink out of a fire hose. No one could take notes fast enough and everyone was looking around in panic, wondering if they were the only ones who couldn’t keep up. The second shock was getting used to a schedule that was more like high school than college. We typically have class from 8 am to 4 pm, and we are in the same auditorium all day except for when we have laboratories. But unlike a normal 8-hour workday, we have to study after school to keep up with the material.

It took about a week to get used to the sheer volume of material that we cover in class daily, and to be mentally prepared to sit in lecture for most of the day. But once I was adjusted, school became much easier (or if not “easier”, at least more manageable). I found that there is actually plenty of time during the week to do things other than study, and I think that having a good balance of school and fun is absolutely vital to success in veterinary school. Outside of school, I work at a small animal emergency hospital on Sundays, volunteer for community outreach activities through the vet school, and make time to explore all Columbus has to offer with my friends and classmates.

Vet school has definitely been a huge transition, and it is a lot of work, but I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I still wake up every day excited to go to class and learn the information that I’ll need to be a veterinarian in just 3.5 short years. So I will continue to happily “suffer” through the insane hours of studying to keep getting closer to my dream job.

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So You Have a Vet School Interview…Now What?

We have many motivated undergraduates in our lab. They often go on to do great things–but not always in ecology!  In this post, Courtney Norjen provides advice for interviewing for Veterinary School. Good luck at OSU, Courtney!


The road to veterinary school is a long, challenging one that involves hundreds or even thousands of hours of veterinary, animal, and research experience, high academic achievement, and additional extracurricular and leadership activities.  After years of preparation and spending hours completing the application, you have an interview!  But how do make yourself stand out in your interview?

Interviews tend to be very nerve-racking, so to make it as comfortable as possible, it is important to prepare.  The best thing you can do to prepare for your interview is to reread your entire application and your personal statement.  Anything that you wrote in your application is fair game for an interview question, so be sure you can talk about everything in there.   For example, I mentioned in my application that while working with a large animal veterinarian, I rode along to a swine farm that had a leptospirosis outbreak.  In one of my interviews, I was asked what kind of disease leptospirosis is, what organ systems it affects, and why it is an important disease.  They want to know that you really did what you listed on your application, that you learned from it, and that you are not going to try to make up an answer to a question you do not know.  Another good way to prepare is to search for lists of veterinary school interview questions on-line.  Be ready to answer the standard “tell me about yourself,”  “why do you want to be a veterinarian,” and “how do you deal with stress” questions, because they are asked in just about every interview.

In addition to answering questions about your experiences, you will likely be asked some ethical or “situational” questions.  A very common one is “what would you do if an owner brings you a perfectly healthy animal and wants you to euthanize it?”  These questions tend to be the hardest for interviewees because they are no longer about you, and many people are afraid to give the wrong answer.  The most important thing to remember about these questions is that there is no right or wrong answer.  You just need to be able to support the answer you give (especially when the interviewers challenge your position, which they undoubtedly will).  Some veterinary schools even use a Multiple Mini Interview (MMI) series where you will be asked nothing but these types of questions, so it is imperative that you are ready to answer them.

Lastly, the best advice I can give you is to be confident and be yourself!  They are interviewing you because they want to get to know YOU.  So before you walk in, take a deep breath, relax, and let your personality speak for itself!